Why do American Executives hate animation?

[Kevin Smith]

http://seanszeles.blogspot.com/2007/10/el-tigre.html

Why do executives hate American animation?

If you haven't heard, El Tigre was canceled. There are some people I've met on this website who worked on El Tigre, and I'm very sorry for them.

Name me one new animated show that is coming out in the next year (not including Chowder). Now name me one original English animated show that is being renewed.

I don't know what to do. I DON'T want to make childish shows. Why must I appeal to children? Because the industry tells me to?

Is it because the House of Mickey doomed American animation to be unfairly considered the realm of children?

I want to animate topics that appeal to me.

I want to go beyond what censorship allows me to show.

I want to push the envelope, to salute the future at the same time I exonerate the past, to create stories that ignite the imagination of those who follow me.

I don't see that currently.

Right now, animation is my dream. Whether I pursue it or not is currently up in the air, but if I do make this my life, I want to revolutionize what has come before and what will come since.

Who is the Miyazaki of American Animation? McCracken? Tartakovsky? Adams? McFarlene?

The only american animations marketed for adults are comedies. Where is the animated "CSI:? "The animated "Heroes"? There are no animated dramas, no animated suspense, no animated action.

Breaking into animation is one thing. Sure, don't break your back, but what are you doing to make American animation considered true art?

In the trailer for PAPRIKA, the New York Times states "Japanese animators are reaching for the moon, while their American counterparts remain stuck in the kiddie box." Doesn't that just anger you?!?

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just ignorant. But don't you want to see something more?

Animation as art?

A conversation:
RadioFreeMetalG: Thank god. I just posted a rant on Frederator
capnkep720: oh yeah?
RadioFreeMetalG: I don't know if I should have
capnkep720: where?
RadioFreeMetalG: On my profile
RadioFreeMetalG: http://raw.channelfrederator.com/profiles/blog/show?id=890404%3ABlo...
capnkep720: I don't see it.
RadioFreeMetalG: I just posted it up 5 seconds ago, so maybe nto
RadioFreeMetalG: So I'm guessing it must be approved by a moderator
capnkep720: well, what was it about?
RadioFreeMetalG: Here's the full script:
capnkep720: ok
RadioFreeMetalG: I was originally going to make this a forum post, but I decided against it.

http://seanszeles.blogspot.com/2007/10/el-tigre.html

Why do executives hate American animation?

If you haven't heard, El Tigre was canceled. There are some people I've met on this website who worked on El Tigre, and I'm very sorry for them.

Name me one new animated show that is coming out in the next year (not including Chowder). Now name me one original English animated show that is being renewed.

I don't know what to do. I DON'T want to make childish shows. Why must I appeal to children? Because the industry tells me to?

Is it because the House of Mickey doomed American animation to be unfairly considered the realm of children?

I want to animate topics that appeal to me.

I want to go beyond what censorship allows me to show.

I want to push the envelope, to salute the future at the same time I exonerate the past, to create stories that ignite the imagination of those who follow me.

I don't see that currently.

Right now, animation is my dream. Whether I pursue it or not is currently up in the air, but if I do make this my life, I want to revolutionize what has come before and what will come since.

Who is the Miyazaki of American Animation? McCracken? Tartakovsky? Adams? McFarlene?

The only american animations marketed for adults are comedies. Where is the animated "CSI:? "The animated "Heroes"? There are no animated dramas, no animated suspense, no animated action.

Breaking into animation is one thing. Sure, don't break your back, but what are you doing to make American animation considered true art?

In the trailer for PAPRIKA, the New York Times states "Japanese animators are reaching for the moon, while their American counterparts remain stuck in the kiddie box." Doesn't that just anger you?!?

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just ignorant. But don't you want to see something more?

Animation as art?

capnkep720: I totally agree with you.
capnkep720: I've never thought about it that way
RadioFreeMetalG: I'm worried some will hate me
capnkep720: if they do, ...f### 'em
RadioFreeMetalG: thanks
capnkep720: why should only the japanese make animation intense adult dramas?
capnkep720: why can't Americans make something like "blue horizon"?
RadioFreeMetalG: Samba will not cater to children
capnkep720: I feel the same with composing music for animation and video games
capnkep720: why is it that only japanese are writing music like this? what's wrong with me being able to do it?
RadioFreeMetalG: What's wrong with holding it to higher standard?
capnkep720: why shouldn't I be able to write something epic for an animation instead of this constant "mickey mouse" sounding crap that's overdone.
capnkep720: exactly.
RadioFreeMetalG: I want to feel the same feeling I felt when watching old school anime at 1 am on SCIFI channel
capnkep720: yeah
capnkep720: Ithink that american art is held back in general
capnkep720: music, theatre, animation
capnkep720: they're cutting all the programs in schools
capnkep720: and when they do have them, they're forced to focus themselves inside a box.
RadioFreeMetalG: Art for the sake of art
capnkep720: yeah, exactly.
capnkep720: I feel like they focus soo much on 3d animation now, and only for movies, that they rarely do anything for anime in america
RadioFreeMetalG: Well, not anime
capnkep720: well, animation
RadioFreeMetalG: Has there been anything animated that appeals beyound the 13- range, besides comedies?
capnkep720: none that I can think of.
capnkep720: unless you consider Boondocks one
RadioFreeMetalG: I love the Simpsons, South Park, and Futurama
capnkep720: but that's only a one way track
capnkep720: and it's only there to make one statment.
capnkep720: which usually incorporates comedy in it.
RadioFreeMetalG: The Boondocks is amazing
capnkep720: albeit a little harsher and more racial.
RadioFreeMetalG: But who else is there in competition?
capnkep720: none.
RadioFreeMetalG: I watch Deviantartist LeSean, who worked storyboards and character design for the Boondocks
capnkep720: that's really cool.
RadioFreeMetalG: And he even states in his post that the Boondocks is pushing the envelope
capnkep720: yeah
capnkep720: this part of our world is continually being poisoned by mediocrity and redundancy
RadioFreeMetalG: Unfortuately, I will never agree to contrbute to anything below my ideals...so, unfortunately still, I will not go far
capnkep720: well, we can't pave our own way by walking in another's footprints.
RadioFreeMetalG: But I fear that I will never break into animation
capnkep720: you just have to develop a thick skin and just go after what you want.
RadioFreeMetalG: In the end, it's the almighty dollar, both in Japan and America
capnkep720: yeah
RadioFreeMetalG: Japan wants Americans to stop downloading their animation without paying
capnkep720: who knows, you might have the next greatest animated series
RadioFreeMetalG: I wish
RadioFreeMetalG: I think
RadioFreeMetalG: I hope
capnkep720: If you know what you want, the rest will come to you.

[Amy Mebberson]

Actually, it was Hanna-Barbera who doomed animation as kid's fodder, not Disney. They were the pioneers of animation for television, where kids became a prime audience.

Do you have a source for the El Tigre cancellation, neither Google nor any of the blogs are reporting this.

But then, Fosters Home remains the most popular thing on CN and it appeals to an EXTREMELY wide audience.
I think part of the problem is that most American production houses and networks are trying to cast too wide a net and have too many programs in development, hoping, perhaps a little blindly, that ONE of them will be the next Powerpuff Girls or Fosters. There are so many people that these decisions have to pass through, include The Enemy (Marketing), that anything other than 'super-whacky' (or 'random stupidity' in the case of Adult Swim) is too risky to bother really throwing their weight behind.

[PiGPEN]

Im pretty sure the animation equivalent of heroes is batman/spiderman/whatever superhero animations still air.
Theres definitely action around in mainstream western animation but drama is very sparse.
I was always a big fan of digimon growing up (and still am) because they werent afraid to delve into dramatic storylines unlike everything else on the tv.
Stuff like South Park is a step in the right direction...well kinda...it all depends on how bigwigs view it.

[Fred Seibert]

Hmmmm, there's a lot here. In no particular order:

You're kind of right, most network executives don't particularly like animation. But, mostly they try really hard. It's frustrating for me to admit that since they give my group such a hard time by not making shows we love, but it's true.

Networks cast a wide net because it's the smart thing to do. When you're dating you do the same thing before you find your "type" if you ever do.

Networks are nervous about risk. If I asked you to spend a huge percentage of your income on anything (ever try and buy a car?) you'd take your time, evaluate the upside and downside, test drive kick the tires, ask your friends and family, and then worry a lot, too.

Kids stuff is made because, in general, a larger percentage of kids prefer animation than adults do. This fact might dishearten you, but it shouldn't. It's just fact to take in.

"Censorship" is a result of the audience not the networks. It's the audience that complains to advertisers and networks. The network executives are more like you than you think, and would be much more relaxed than you might imagine.

The internet will not censor you. Make anything you want. If people love it you know you're right. If they don't, well, you might have been wrong as to what you think is attractive.

El Tigre was definitely canceled.

Foster's is sort of popular, maybe a B+, but not a smash hit. The only smash hits on American television for kids are Spongebob and Fairly Oddparents (which has been renewed for a seventh season, by the way); Barnyard is shaping up to be a hit too. Adult-wise, it's Family Guy and South Park; Simpsons is kind of faded, ratings wise.

When it comes to the commercial side of animation (stuff that costs money), "True Art" is a relative term and is usually conferred well after the fact. My opinion? Make the best stuff you can with the resources available (some, or none, or much) and wait for someone else to tell you you've made art.

Miyazaki is a creation of the audience not a stand alone person. Without an audience to respond he almost ceases to exist art-wise. That's true of Disney, Scorcese, Welles, Bergman, you name him/her. It's not "America" that's the issue (be careful, you're talking to an American here) but audiences throughout the world who determine what they love and what they don't. Our personal taste is critical but isn't, unfortunately, the deciding factor. I used to have a partner that warned "In this business you have to have two heads: yours and theirs." I was young when he said it and he just annoyed me. It took me 20 years to realize he was right.


Hanna-Barbera did not "doom animation as kid's fodder" Amy. The audience did. As soon as television made it possible for adults to avoid cartoons they did. And it's always been a challenge. Read any good Walt Disney biography.

You're ideals are all well and good, seriously. Stick to them. if you take someone's money for your work you are entering a collaboration.

What's wrong with making films that people are in love with?

Please create something great, any style, and show it to me, really. I might not want to get involved, but if it's great, you won't need me.

[Tim Ingle]

ditto

[Mariah Osmundson]

Amen! :)

[Keith Handy]

I've been under the impression that cartoons in America are a little more popular with adults than they were 40 years ago; am I mistaken?

[Elliot Cowan]

Here's my two cents.
Sean - you are a very talented artist and you are obviously very passionate about what you want to draw and what you want to say.
You may have to consider the notion that mainstream commercial animation is not the place for you.
This is a hard choice to make - the idea of the masses loving your clever ideas is tempting, so is the satisfaction of working on a popular program (not to mention the chance of recognition and money).
I have walked a line between mainstream and "art" and I think it's the best option if you want to work in the industry and satisfy your broader urges (and pay the bills and eat).
Fred mentioned Martin Scorses.
Scorsese has spent years, in his own words, making one for the studio and one for himself.

Questioning why there isn't more of one genre or another in animation is irrelevant.
It's like questioning why people would eat out rather than cook or why people prefer baseball to cricket.
There is no real answer beyond, "Because that's the way it is".
Now this may seem like a bit of a downer, but it's not intended to be.
If anything I guess I'm suggesting that there are other paths you can walk that make you a happy person doing good work.

One final thing - I understand that the end of a show you enjoy is an emotional experience, but you could hardly claim El Tigre was a particularly multi layered show that brought new ideas and expression to the medium (not wanting to be disrespectful to the talented people who worked on it).

[Amy Mebberson]

Fred - my mistake. Point is, the advent of television acted as a polarising force on popular entertainment and audience tastes directly affected the decisions of advertisers and content creators.

Look at Pixar - they haven't made a dud yet and although the Disney publicity blitz and merchandise may be mostly kid-oriented, Pixar make great movies with great characters with much wider appeal than most stuff Disney does on its own these days. Pixar creators are smart enough to work WITHIN the boundaries of what the public and advertisers find accessible.

What Fred said - if you create something truly fun, exciting and addictively entertaining, it WILL get noticed.

[Fred Seibert]

Wasn't trying to be contrary Amy, sorry for the tone.

[Chris Battle]

Elliot- I think most of that post (Aside from the link at the top) was all Kevin's, not Sean's.

[Elliot Cowan]

Ahh.
Well in that case I still stand by the fact that Sean is a talented illustrator and the rest of the info can go to Kevin.
Thanks!

[Ann-Marie Denham]

This is an interesting topic, and one that is often brought up around the studio. It does indeed seem to come down to finding someone who's willing to take a risk. The longer I spend in the industry, the more I realise that "the bad people" i.e producers, broadcasters and investors are not as evil as perhaps I'd once thought. They have their own crosses to bear. I'm not saying that there is anyone who is totally blameless, but nor am I saying that it is the fault of one person or role.
One thing I noticed when attending MIPCOM last month was that it seemed that finding an audience wasn't the issue. It was convincing the broadcasters that the audience was there. One gets all sorts of contradictory feedback. We had three projects that didn't fit in the 6-12 age bracket, and the range of responses we got about that was a little exasperating. "Tween audience? Forget it. No-one will screen it." "Teens and up? We're looking for that. Got any scripts?" "You want this to be for adults? You'll need to make the designs 'edgier'." "I don't see why adults would want to watch a superhero cartoon." "You should talk to {insert company name}. They're looking for older demographic material." And yet I'd walk around the market and see some totally awful stuff that's being promoted AND being picked up. Why??? What did that project have that ours don't have? I still don't know.